Monday, January 17, 2005

This Is What Happens When You're Bored

I was watching one of the animations on Aljazeera's website that said something about Yehiel Hazan, a member of the Israeli Knesset, calling Arabs worms. Not that Aljazeera's news reports neeeeeed to be checked out, but I like doing independent study anyway; I just find it more interesting to read things first hand rather than through a secondary source.
One of the top finds I got on Google under "yehiel hazan" +worms was this blog.
After reading what this Angry White Kid had to say, I went down the comments and found this refreshingly interesting perspective:
Faisal,
It is men like you who keep the Arab world weak and silly. Why such fear of accepting responsiblity? Why do all our failures have to be laid at the doors of others? I'm sure you think that when Arab men murder Darfurian women and children that this is somehow someone else's fault. After all, if you can find any role played by any Westerner in the history of Darfur, then--gotcha!--this proves that Arabs are not to blame.
I'm so tired of people like you. You make me despair of ever seeing a better future for the Arab people. But of course, there are six billion people on this planet, and the world is bigger than just the Arabs. But this observation makes me a "house nigger" in your silly, feckless eyes. Westerners have convinced you that it's okay for you to be a racist, because after all you're only an Arab and when an Arab is racist he is a freedom fighter.
You're the pet Arab of young Western pseudo-radicals like Angry White Kid. He means well, so he has an excuse. What's your excuse?
Posted by: al Farabi January 7, 2005 02:14 AM

Ooooooooh. I really hope those guys answer back because I'm dying to hear how they can defend themselves against that one!

21 Shpeils

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

since of course i have nothing to do with my time i read tht conversation that you led me to. I bet al-farabi is a jew. wouldnt that be funny.

Monday, January 17, 2005 11:35:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

thanks for posting my blog, i bet you all must love it. sorry, but for myself i don't plan on responding to al-farabi. we had a conversation over several posts and basically said all that we could say to one another.
needless to say, i completely disagree with al-farabi. he's selective in his outrage, and amazingly simplistic in his analysis, as signified as the post that you decidedly enjoy so much.

and by the way, you guys are nuts. bombing mosques? loving meir kahane? that's real cute. why don't you just move to hebron and beat on palestinian kids?

scott
angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 3:40:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Somebody here is agreeing with Kahana or with bombing mosques?

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:16:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

yup...from the post above this one:

"Watching this sort of gives you that vigilante feeling. I like to see myself as an intellectual educating myself about the middle east, but this makes me want to firebomb someones mosque"

and for the kahane love, check out DB Cooper's profile.

scott
angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:00:00 AM  

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Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

Scott,

You read our blog and think we’re nuts. I’ve read yours (some of it) and think you sound a bit...stupid at times. But hey--we can all think what we want as long as we allow each other to express it anyway!
As for someone liking Kahane, I don’t see why you think there’s anything wrong with that. Kahane’s belief was that the Palestinian Arabs were not going to stop attacking the Jews in Israel as long as they were there. Therefore, the only way to solve that would be to deport all the Arabs out of Israel (and the Palestinian territories) not to “beat on Palestinian kids” in Hebron. While most people do not agree that this is a way to fix anything--there are a few people who do. D.B. Cooper happens to be one of them. And if he’s able to make such a strong statement despite the obvious intimidations against it (from the rest of the members of Punks) and is knowledgeable enough in his stance that he can debate anyone to the ground, he definitely has my respect.
Furthermore, if you read the above blog, all Elder Punk is saying is that he WOULD “LIKE to see himself as an intellectual educating himself about the middle east.” However, reading an article like the one he read about how someone was brutually murdered because of the views he expressed in an act that was not only to avenge the guy for these ideas but to silence anyone else who might feel similarly (which seems to be working already: "I am concerned for the safety of our community," said Ayed, who knew Hossam for 30 years. "People are scared because one family was slain like cows," said Moheb Ghabour, publisher of a local newspaper for the Coptic community.) makes him so upset that he appears to be working up against a wall that he just wants to firebomb a mosque. Most would argue that that isn’t a very effective response, but he’s just venting frustration--not testing an idea to try out.

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:26:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just so we are clear. While I abhor Kahana and those things for which he stood and his supporters still stand, I consider the tripe on your website to be the opposite side of the same coin, Mr. Angry. It's people like you who have turned vast swathes of the Left into the rabid, sick, stench-filled venomous movement that ensures most people steer clear of you and your beliefs. Furthermore, you have swallowed and now regurgitate the propaganda spewed forth by the people who would rather destroy a state than seek to achieve peace and compromise with that state.

Seriously, your starting point may be different than Kahana's but you are cut of the same cloth. Keep staying angry and let us know how it works out for you.


TM (jewlicious.com)

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:48:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello,

I based my "nuts" statment on the fact that the first post I read someone says an incident makes them want to firebomb a mosque. Then I check out the people writing for your blog and one of them claims to be a fan of Kahane. If you were a random wanderer and those were some of the first things you saw on this blog, wouldn't you perhaps come to that conclusion? Maybe not, but you get what I'm saying, I hope.

I understand what Elder Punk was saying. What happened was horrendous. But as you point out the need for al-Jazeera stories to be checked out, I'm sure you would agree that New York Daily News stories need to be checked out before jumping to the emotional status of burning something down. I get pissed off at shit that Israel does all the time, but I would never dream of attacking Jews because of it. Pro-Israel folks claim all the time that Arabs want to "kill the jews" and here there is a post about burning a mosque.

As for Kahane, I've never met anyone who supported him that wasn't rabidly racist. Perhaps DB Cooper is different, but I won't hold my breath. I've had hours long conversations with JDL people and my fair share of threats and hate mail from them and others, too. What they spew is nothing but vicioius, misinformed hatred.

Since Kahane failed, so far, his followers have resorted to doing things like beat up Palestinian kids, poison Paletinian livestock, uproot Palestinian olive trees and turn the Palestinian section of Hebron into a prison. I have friends who have lived in and around Hebron, some of whom were beaten and robbed by settlers for the crime of walking Palestinian kids to school. I suggest checking out the documentary "Inside God's Bunker" to see Kahane's troops in action. (It was made by an Israeli undercover reporter, so don't give me any "propaganda" garbage.)

Just because DB supports Kahane and can argue his points effectively does not make him worthy of respect. I'm sure you can find someone who can argue the benefits of eugenics effectively, but I'm not going to respect him. The same goes for any racist maxim.

I am most shocked (or maybe not so much) to hear that you find nothing wrong with people who support Kahane. So, do you find nothing wrong with Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir? Do you disagree that Kach and Kahane Chai should be banned in Israel because of their racism? Do you find Kach's bumper sticker, "I've killed an Arab, have you?" offensive at all?

And let's face it, transfer of an indigenous population is ethnic cleansing. Anyone who argues that viewpoint is a promoter of ethnic cleansing. Generally those people are called racists.

I would love to be proven wrong, that somehow you or your colleagues don't hold these beliefs, but until then, I feel comfortable in my view that you guys are nuts. Though some of you more so than others. And feel free to keep calling me stupid.

And to TM, please explain your thought? How is anything I've written even close to the extremes of Kahane? That's a pretty big condemnation.

And sorry this comment is so long, I didn't mean it to be.

scott
angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:55:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I went to your website. I read your entries.

I quote, "Imagine how extremely racist you have to be to get censored for racism in Israel!"

End of discussion. Your hate is clear as day. The fact you actually have to ask me how what you write resembles Kahana is amusing but from the Left is amusing.

Now run along and be sure to use big scary words like apartheid soon and often.

TM (Jewlicious.com)

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:30:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I went to your website. I read your entries.

I quote, "Imagine how extremely racist you have to be to get censored for racism in Israel!"

End of discussion. Your hate is clear as day. The fact you actually have to ask me how what you write resembles Kahana but from the Left is amusing.

Now run along and be sure to use big scary words like apartheid soon and often.

TM (Jewlicious.com)

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:30:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

scott

as far as the integrity of the, ahm New York Post, correct, by itself it is questionable. However the story was on the local Fox evening news, 1010wins as well as other local news agencies. this was just an example that i decided to post albeit a poor one under the gun.

I dont get it, are you justifying your "nuts" statement or not? You sound like your flip-floping. You don't know DB well enough to call him a nut. I suppose I can call supporters of Arafat nuts as well. and you yourself admitt that I am not about to bomb a mosque.

"pro-israel folk" eh. do u realize how many different opinions and viewpoints and ideologies consider themselves "pro-israel"? Are you trying to say that since one person wrote on his shirt "I love israel and genociding arabs" that all of a sudden all people who are "pro-israel" love that too. Should i assume that since i hear stories and see vides of mobs of depraved lunatics who happen to be arabs in various dictatorships around the world screaming "kill the jew", that my hypothetical arab classmate is hiding a dagger under his coat and waiting of the teacher to step out?!? what are you trying to say? you call me nuts, but simply brush aside the case of someones family being wiped out because he utilized his right to free speech!! thats the problem with you guys on the left of center. you want to make the world a better place, but u manage to make yourself the tools of oppressive dictatorships around the world who love nothing more than to keep the conflict in "palestine the land of israel" going for another 50+ years and keep the angry masses from hanging them from a fig tree.

i am sorry about the threats towards you, i cant see DB ever doing that.

have you forgotten about free-speech? if the arab mk's can say the things they wish, then certainly kahane's buddies should be allowed to do. banning a party because of racism is a poor excuse for censorship. everyone should be allowed to preach whatever they want. did i mention that israei-arabs are the most legally protected of any arab population in the middle east. their press is entirely free. and that is part of the reason that israel gets such a bad rap, because it allows anyone to publish or say anything. reporters love israel because they can spend their day watching a riot in ramallah, but then retreat for the night of fun in Tel-Aviv.

since both i and timothy mcveigh support the USA, does that mean that i support blowing up buildings to change the attitude of the federal government? I think that should answer your questions about amir and goldstein, at least for my side.

another thing I love about the "left of center do-gooder 'folk'" is that you guys consistenly ignore anything that goes on behind the iron wall of the dictatorships. you will scream when israelis try to fight for their survival, but i wont hear a peep when kurds and sudanese are butchered. You guys dont fight for the rights of the oppressed. I am convinced that you guys fight for the right of whomever the oppressors ask you to fight for. actually Ive just had a brainstorm that i should thank you for. you guys actually are the heirs to kipling's "white man's burden". Maybe you can't find fault in the actions of "non-white people" because you see them as "half-devil and half-child". you know that what you say and protest etc. will be felt to some degree or another by westerners, not that it will change anything. but non-western dictators arent gonna give a crap if you scream. You see them and their people as "half-devil and half child". You can hold up all the signs you want, ordering lions to stop killing zebras, but you know it wont mean jack. Of course this is all sub-concious, I wont call you guys racists.

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:48:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, Elder Punk,

What's with the business about Left of Center. I'm Left of Center. Angry White Guy is on the far Left. He's of the tribe of loonies who wouldn't let Michael Lerner on a stage at an antiwar rally because he was a Zionist, even though he is also of the far Left.

When you see the word Center, it's a good thing. It's the people on the fringes who tend to be the hateful loonies.

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:19:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oops. That was me. TM

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:20:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

sorry if i cast u in the loony toons.
but admit it, my thought on "white mans burden" was great.

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:04:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

This will probably be my last comment, I've found discussions that occur in the comments sections don't really get us anywhere.

To TM, yes I did write, "Imagine how extremely racist you have to be to get censored for racism in Israel!" And I stand by that statement 100%. How does that in anyway show I am filled with hate? It shows that I believe Israel to be a racist society. But I also believe the US to be a racist society. I fail to see how such views indicate hatred. I think you're just quick to demonize cause you don't like what I have to say.

As for Michael Lerner, I disagree with him in his final analysis, but I think he does really important work. NorCal ISM, the group I mainly work with, has done stuff with Tikkun in the past and we are working with them on projects now. I think you have me construed as a harsh ANSWER ideologue type, but I'm really not. Thanks anyways for being so condescending to me.

About the censorhip. I do think that groups who advocate ethnic cleansing should be censored. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't heard an Arab MK calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. They already go after Azmi Bishara cause he supports full rights for everyone, regardless of their background. You really can't compare the views of Kach and Bishara. My questions about Goldstein and Amir I feel are valid. Goldstein was a member of the JDL. I'm assuming the DB Cooper is as well, or at least supports their efforts. The JDL is very proud of Goldstein. There's a difference between supporting Israel and supporting Kahane. I know you understand that difference. I'm trying to figure out how far you all sympathize with, to use your term, the "looney tunes" on the right.

I realize there is a vast difference in opinion among pro-Israel folks. From Lerner to Kahane. What's interesting is that you are stating that one shouldn't just an entire people based on the actions of one person, yet in your other post, you feel like you want to burn a mosque, affecting hundreds of innocent people, because of the actions of one person. And you call me a flip-flopper? I share you outrage over the murders. That's incredibly fucked up if indeed the whole basis was because of what some guy said in a chat room. Still, that doesn't justify lashing out at an entire people.

I love that crap about how "free" the Arabs are in Israel. This isn't a game of compare the Middle Eastern countries. I realize that Israel affords people more freedoms than most Arab countries. But at that same time, Arabs are treated as second class citizens in Israel. There are dozens of racist laws, and no matter how much freedom of the press they have, or whether than can vote or not, does not change that fact.

As for the white man's burden theory, while clever, it doesn't even justify a response. Explain to me what I have ignored. Explain to me how Israel killing 7 kids picking strawberries is fighting for it's survival? Guarding settlements is not equivalent to fighting for survival. Do you think I get emails from Khomeini or something, telling me my daily target? In terms of the Kurds and the Sudanese. I'm working with a friend in Turkey about the situation of the Kurds, along with the F-Type prisons and the consequent death hunger strike. For Darfur, I've called congress, sent emails, and spoke with my Oakland City Councilwoman trying to get them to pass a resolution against it. My activism is not just around Israel/Palestine. And I'm going to stop justifying myself to you. Go on and be judgemental. Call me whatever you want, if it makes you feel better. I certainly won't lose any sleep over what you folks think about me.

scott
angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:31:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

This will probably be my last comment, I've found discussions that occur in the comments sections don't really get us anywhere.

To TM, yes I did write, "Imagine how extremely racist you have to be to get censored for racism in Israel!" And I stand by that statement 100%. How does that in anyway show I am filled with hate? It shows that I believe Israel to be a racist society. But I also believe the US to be a racist society. I fail to see how such views indicate hatred. I think you're just quick to demonize cause you don't like what I have to say.

As for Michael Lerner, I disagree with him in his final analysis, but I think he does really important work. NorCal ISM, the group I mainly work with, has done stuff with Tikkun in the past and we are working with them on projects now. I think you have me construed as a harsh ANSWER ideologue type, but I'm really not. Thanks anyways for being so condescending to me.

About the censorhip. I do think that groups who advocate ethnic cleansing should be censored. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't heard an Arab MK calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews. They already go after Azmi Bishara cause he supports full rights for everyone, regardless of their background. You really can't compare the views of Kach and Bishara. My questions about Goldstein and Amir I feel are valid. Goldstein was a member of the JDL. I'm assuming the DB Cooper is as well, or at least supports their efforts. The JDL is very proud of Goldstein. There's a difference between supporting Israel and supporting Kahane. I know you understand that difference. I'm trying to figure out how far you all sympathize with, to use your term, the "looney tunes" on the right.

I realize there is a vast difference in opinion among pro-Israel folks. From Lerner to Kahane. What's interesting is that you are stating that one shouldn't just an entire people based on the actions of one person, yet in your other post, you feel like you want to burn a mosque, affecting hundreds of innocent people, because of the actions of one person. And you call me a flip-flopper? I share you outrage over the murders. That's incredibly fucked up if indeed the whole basis was because of what some guy said in a chat room. Still, that doesn't justify lashing out at an entire people.

I love that crap about how "free" the Arabs are in Israel. This isn't a game of compare the Middle Eastern countries. I realize that Israel affords people more freedoms than most Arab countries. But at that same time, Arabs are treated as second class citizens in Israel. There are dozens of racist laws, and no matter how much freedom of the press they have, or whether than can vote or not, does not change that fact.

As for the white man's burden theory, while clever, it doesn't even justify a response. Explain to me what I have ignored. Explain to me how Israel killing 7 kids picking strawberries is fighting for it's survival? Guarding settlements is not equivalent to fighting for survival. Do you think I get emails from Khomeini or something, telling me my daily target? In terms of the Kurds and the Sudanese. I'm working with a friend in Turkey about the situation of the Kurds, along with the F-Type prisons and the consequent death hunger strike. For Darfur, I've called congress, sent emails, and spoke with my Oakland City Councilwoman trying to get them to pass a resolution against it. My activism is not just around Israel/Palestine. And I'm going to stop justifying myself to you. Go on and be judgemental. Call me whatever you want, if it makes you feel better. I certainly won't lose any sleep over what you folks think about me.

scott
angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:56:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmm.

You support ISM, which in turn supports the violent war of the Palestinians.

You disagree with Lerner even though he is to the Left of Meretz.

You couch your words about the freedom of Israeli Arabs compared to Arab countries by suggesting that Israel is one among a number such countries that provide freedom. Absolute falsehood.

You stand by calling a state and a people racist although that state has citizens of every color and religion. You don't call, anywhere in your bolg, the Palestinians or Arabs racists or bigots or antisemites for seeking to empty the land upon which they reside of Jews as did the Jordanians.

Your bias and hatred are clear as day. If you don't see how ISM with its acceptance of suicide bombings, and its support for those two bombers who blew up Mike's Place in Tel Aviv is no different than what Kahana supported, then you are delusional.

You know why you have to focus on Goldstein and Amir? Because they are the exception. Keep that in mind. And while you're keeping that in mind, remember that all of your work accomplishes one thing. It does not bring us closer to peace. Rather, it encourages the worst aspects of the pro-Palestinian and Palestinian side to continue with their present course unabated because they believe people like you will over their backs in the West. We've already seen it happen in Europe, and now you are doing it here in the US for them. Guess what? Violence begets violence. Hatred and bigotry begets more of the same. You'd be better off trying to teach the Palestinians about peace and co-existence if you wanted to get anywhere.

Oh, and one last thing. When you sit there and think in the bottom of your heart that I am right. Also consider that when the US was formed, it took a very long time before, say, women had the vote, and even longer before civil rights were instituted. Keep in mind that Israel is a young country that has been besieged by war for 60 years. Despite that, they have a vibrant democracy, civil rights for all (yes, Arab Israelis are treated poorly in some aspects of their life, but over time that is changing and will continue to improve), had been able to improve the standard of living of the Palestinians so that it had been higher than any other group in the Middle East, and had sought to share the land with the Palestinians a number of times (1937, 1947, 2000). Keep all of that in mind and remember that your hate, and the hatred of your colleagues, is directed at destroying all of that in favor of the types of countries we see in Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt. For that reason alone, you will fail.

TM
Dude, Zionism is a very fine enterprise. It is an ethical and moral movement. The state of Israel has had to exist under a siege and war

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:57:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

That PS was supposed to end: ...and yet has manged to remain a decent state - and certainly not a racist one.

Thursday, January 20, 2005 5:06:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh, the wholesome zionist youth...nothing wrong with kahane, eh? israel not racist, eh? those jews struggling for survival by beating 8 year old kids, eh? fascism chai!

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/530041.html

As they approached IDF Square, next to Jerusalem's City Hall, where the eastern and western parts of the city meet, they noticed a group of some 30 youngsters, the boys walking separately from the girls. As it happened, they had just come back from the monthly ritual of encircling the Temple Mount - a mass of skullcaps, prayer shawls and long skirts - and were now screaming "Death to the Arabs!" and "Filthy Arabs, get out of our country!" at the top of their lungs.

Maabad and Nazigian didn't pay much attention. Having been born into the occupation, such scenes are familiar to them. The little girl skipped ahead of them and tried to get her mother and her friend to play. "We didn't think they would do anything to us," they recall now - but before they realized what was happening, the Jewish group assaulted them, the boys attacking Saad and the girls Dalida and her daughter, pummeling and kicking them.

[snip]

Her 15-year-old girlfriend, giggling with self-satisfaction, added: "We saw the Arab on television. He seemed to be in one piece. Too bad he didn't die."

The Jerusalem cafe where the interview was held was not to her taste. "There are Arabs here," she whispered, her eyes gaping. Did she want to leave? "No, why should I leave? I want to kick them out of here."

scott

Friday, January 21, 2005 3:40:00 PM  

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Blogger TM (Jewlicious) said...

Are you joking, Scott? Seriously.

Do you not understand that you called both the state and the entire nation of Israel racist?

Since there have been a number of "swarming" cases in Toronto, Canada where groups of youths comparable in size to the one that article describes that have randomly and viciously attacked individuals who either belonged to minorities or seemed weak and hapless, should we begin to call Canada a fascist country with hoodlums and a society bent on destroying the weak?

What should we call Jordan and the PA that want all Jews gone from their midst?

Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:55:00 AM  

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Blogger akiva said...

I support Kahane as a convert to Judaism. I guess that makes me a racist because I joined a race everybody loves to hate, including alot of Jews that need to learn to love themselves. That's what Kahane taught and God bless the Arabs in all of their 22 countries and in their flight out of ours.
Hopefully, this happy event will happen next year when I make aliyah. If not, we will struggle to make it happen.

Sincerely,

Akiva Rogers

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:15:00 AM  

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Blogger akiva said...

I support Kahane as a convert to Judaism. I guess that makes me a racist because I joined a race everybody loves to hate, including alot of Jews that need to learn to love themselves. That's what Kahane taught and God bless the Arabs in all of their 22 countries and in their flight out of ours.
Hopefully, this happy event will happen next year when I make aliyah. If not, we will struggle to make it happen.

Sincerely,

Akiva Rogers

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:15:00 AM  

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