Friday, February 11, 2005

If diplomacy requires me to shake hands with those who allow me to be hated, I will be a diplomat no more

(Note: this essay is still in the editing process so it may seem to be missing parts or have underdeveloped ideas.)
“At the camp gate we were greeted by a sign reading, “Arbeit macht
den Menschen frei,”--work will set you free.
It soon dawned on me that the sign meant that
laboring in this murderous camp frees you and strips
you of your humanity.”
-My great-grandfather, Opa, upon his arrival to Bergen-Belsen
from his privately published memoir To My Dear Children

There is a sign in the Palestinian Club room at Hunter that says, “History Repeats: Look What Hitler Taught Some of His Victims.” The letters on the sign are dripping, as though of blood. Under the copy is a star of David morphing into a Swastika. That’s right, not an Israeli flag morphing into a Swastika or Ariel Sharon learning from Hitler--a Magen David--the emblem of Hitler's victims, the Jews, on the sign.
I know this because I saw it. I walked into their club space one day after hearing about the sign and saw it up close. My heart sped up, my breathing stopped, and my eyes were trying not to look at the one thing they couldn’t stop looking at.
My grandmother spent her young teens barely living in Bergen-Belsen, a Nazi concentration camp in northwestern Germany, during the Holocaust. According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, “50,000 Jews and other prisoners died of disease, brutality, starvation, and sadistic medical practices” at Bergen-Belsen. My grandmother and her family were some of the few fortunate survivors. My grandfather’s entire family was killed when their shtetl in Lithuania was massacred during the Holocaust.
I tried to consider the possibility that the people who made the sign and the club who hung it on their clubroom wall hadn't realized what it might be like for a grandchild of Hitler's victims to see a sign that calls her Hitler. Maybe the Palestinian Club didn't mean to call me a Nazi, but intended, rather, to make a political statement. Of course, while I had to consider that, I feel that regardless of their intent, they took it too far.
After months of going back and forth between the Leadership Council for Jewish Student Life, the Palestinian Club leadership, and Dean Escott, we finally had a meeting at which two delegates (me and Steve) were going to tell the Palestinian Club how we felt about their sign and have them vote on the necessity of having it hanging in their room.
I was waiting in Room TH 105 with Steve Yuniver, the president of HIPAC, for the Palestinian Club to come and begin the meeting at which they were supposed to vote on the fate of the sign hanging in their club room. Palestinian Club members trailed in a few at a time until we were really just waiting for the leadership to arrive.
I saw Dean Escott walk in with the Palestinian Club leaders and sit down at the head of the three small, round tables we had pushed together. He put a copy of an article I wrote for CampusJ on the table and addressed me concerning it. Apparently, there is a difference between a legal right and a moral right. I wish I would have known about this when the first issue--that of the sign in the Palestinian Club room--came up. Now that I’ve been thinking about it a lot, I think I can remember him telling me and another Jewish student that while it may not be morally right for the sign to be up there, it is legally right. This time, however, I got the flipside of the argument.
I explained to him that as this is an issue that pertains to all students on campus, all students had a right to know what was going on. When I was at that meeting last semester, I was there as a representative for the Jewish community, not for myself alone. It was well understood at the beginning of the meeting that we Jewish leaders would leave and report back to our community and that the Palestinian Club leadership would report back to their club.
Then Dean Escott told me that it was wrong of me to make this known to people in other schools, too. What I didn’t say but should have was that if there is something that he doesn’t want other people knowing about it should be a situation. It’s okay that I left that out, though, because there is so much more I did say on the topic.
I told him that when we originally approached him, he explained to me that he was aware of the situation, but that the Palestinian Club had a right to free speech. He then warned us that if anyone were to rip the sign down he would be the one in a position to expel the student and he wouldn’t hesitate to do so. Our meeting lasted no more than 5 or 10 minutes.
I didn’t end there, though. I went on to explain that near the end of the meeting that Jerrell Robinson moderated between us and the Palestinian Club, he and Dean Escott were trying to convince me and the HIPAC officers present that maybe it was time we “looked beyond the sign” and worked with the Palestinian Club anyway. They implied that we were being silly in getting worked up over the situation and should act mature and swallow our misgivings. I felt that I was being told that I didn’t have a right to be offended by the sign and that my feelings about it were not being allowed validity.
“And that, Dean Escott, is discrimination.”
He argued that he worked hard to make that meeting between us and the Palestinian Club possible, but I could argue strongly against that. When we first went to him he really had no interest in getting involved. I think he saw it as a student affair to be settled between the students. It was when I saw Dean Schachter, the Dean for Diversity (God bless her!), that I was told that the President’s office had only recently been made aware of the issue and that a meeting would happen very soon--she’d have Dean Escott on it.
Between when I saw the sign hanging on the wall of the room until today, three months later, my intolerance for it has grown. Originally, some friends criticized me for not being enraged enough (others, of course, thought I was nuts to get excited). But I figured then that it was just a sign. Words don’t mean the world and I haven’t seen the students who hung it up attack any Jewish students yet. But then I tried doing something about the situation and felt that I kept running up against a brick wall. The Palestinian Club wasn’t as cooperative as I would have liked and the Dean of Students did not have any interest in helping us arrive at a conclusion until an authority above him made him get involved.
I started wondering if the sign had been a direct attack on any other minority, whether it would have been considered as acceptable as this one. It doesn’t seem very likely that if the Conservative Club had a Confederate Flag with racist slurs painted onto it, or a sign proclaiming that all practitioners of Islam are suicide-bombing Fundamentalists, that it would still be around.
I am a strong believer that it is not history that repeats itself but human nature that doesn’t change. When we stop allowing a group of people to feel a certain way, and strip their feelings of validity, we are not too far from not considering them as human as we are.
While at a recent conference, I heard Rachel Fish of the David Project speak about a similar situation she faced at Harvard Divinity School when she was a graduate student there. She said she found herself having to say, “words have consequences, so it does effect me,” to people who thought she was overreacting. I think she’s right. The sign my Opa was greeted with at Bergen-Belsen was just a sign. The sign in the Palestinian Club room is just a sign. But pictures speak a thousand words and a person’s reaction to a picture speaks even louder about their society.

26 Shpeils

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would like to point out that on a private meeting Dean Escott stated that "if anyone were to rip down THAT POSTER he has the power to use diciplinary action"; however, on a public forum he said if anyone were to deface property on school premises. How come the dean of students is picking side? Another thing Dina that you didn't point out is that Dean Escott said that he was offended by that poster but never said that they should take it down.(private meeting with palestinian club leadership and us) But to you he said your actions were premature, uncalled for, and immoral. (during the Palestinian club meeting with us)... Personally I think that the leaders of the palestinian club have been in contact with us and yes we had bumps here and there but I put the blame more on Dean Escott with his positions on whats going on.

Friday, February 11, 2005 12:16:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

that was me previous comment

Friday, February 11, 2005 12:17:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

....how dare he scrutinize you and not take anything but his job into consideration. the man should be investigated..

Friday, February 11, 2005 12:19:00 PM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

I’m very proud of you, Dorkinsky. Maybe Ashkis do have backbones after all. You’ve learned a valuable lesson that us Brown Jews and Meir Kahane (honorary Brown Jew) have known all along: sometimes diplomacy must take a backseat to sanity. Tell Dean Escott he can suck my richard. End transmission!

Friday, February 11, 2005 4:35:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

tell escott to go "spill his seed". Whats up with jews who make better goys than the goyim?

Saturday, February 12, 2005 11:22:00 PM  

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Blogger The Nucular Jew said...

I think Dean Escott sucks the fat one, and it's incredible that any dean can let that poster stay up in any room, anywhere in the university. I don't know if any of you know this, but the swastika is actually outlawed in Germany (to the agony of some Hindus) because of what it means today. Now we, Jewish students in America, have to deal with this and get no support from the Dean of students (who is also Jewish!?)? I say we go to the high press, make something out of this.

Monday, February 14, 2005 9:02:00 PM  

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Blogger Elu V'Elu said...

I think going to the press now is playing into the hands of the palestinian club. They are hoping a really big deal is made, so they can get publicity (makes no difference good or bad!). Also, the press will always look at the issue from 'both' sides and won't help you get the sign down. You need to let Pres Rabb know that if the sign does not come down, you will go to the Head of CCNY, the Mayor's office and any Council member you can find who will work behind the sceans to rid Hunter of this vile anti semitism. Good luck.

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:05:00 AM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

Its not about the sign anymore and its not about the dean. I agree with Elu going to the media would be a bad thing. I think the politics is a good idea but whats most important is the student body. The student body outside of hillel and the PA club room dont know anything about whats going on. Its as though a shadow war is going on and the administration is trying its best to cover it up by de-humanizing hillel. I spoke with Lisa about Dean Escotts comments (she approached me) and she said that she was under the impression those comments were to be held private and not to attack Dina. During the meetin dean escott said nothing to me however saw that dina was out there and decided to save face with the PA club by attacking Dina who they were angry at. When dina said he wasn't doing his job he excused himself. I dont think the sign is whats the matter but its the action of certain individuals that are causing problems. So what is there to do now? GET DEAN ESCOTTS TENIER REVOKED FOR ATTEMPTING TO DE_HUMINIZE A STUDENT ON A PUBLIC FORUM.
(i feel like a Macabbee) :)

Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:17:00 PM  

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Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

Mesiach, while informing the student body about the situation might be a good idea--it wouldn't bring us anywhere yet! If the sign is not down by Tuesday (do I even bother emailing Lisa and Lamese today to find out?), I will be writing Dean Escoci an e-mail and I will make sure to let him know that we took the situation under our control so that we could resolve it diplomatically instead of with loud noises and what not but now that he didn't help us out blah blah blah we will tell everyone who wanted to contact their assemblypeople to contact them (and cc Dean Escoci and President Raab, too!)...maybe I'll finish this comment later but for now I have to challot to tend to!
shabbat shalom

Friday, February 18, 2005 12:43:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinian... Lisa said...

I think that the entire situation is getting out of hand. I think although the sign in the Palestinian club is seen as Anti-JEWISH, I think that the Jewish organizations should take into consideration the attempts taken by the Palestinian leadership to difused the situation. I think that Dina should give the leadership more credit than they have been given. It is understandable to hold a grudge against the poster, but you should also try and make an attempt to really apply the explanation giving to support the poster a try.
The club, full-heartedly agrees that the poster is in no way an attempt to portray an ANTI-JEWSIH connotation, but placing it into the proper context the political aspect has light shed onto it. The star of David holds two positions, one being the representation of the Jewish faith and the otheer being the representation of the state of Israel, our club is using the star in its second definition. And yes if you would take the time to look at historic documentation of the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis there can be a correlations made of the Nazi holocaust to the systematic genocide overcoming the Palestinians. We as the Palestinian club recognize the atrocities of the holocaust, but now we only wish that you guys could really see what the Israeli government is doing that is so immoral and brutal to the people of Palestine.
Feelings on both sides have been offended, and it is not to say to fight fire with fire, but I think that we should all make an attempt to keep talks going and not cut off ties. This is not to say that your feelings on the poster hold no validity, but that we need to try and understand one another, rather than trying to make the Palestinian club and leaders look like it is fueled with hatred of Judaism, because it is not.
I would like to add that I do not necessarily agree with Mesiach that Dean Escott said what he did to Dina in front of us just so he could save face with us (the Palestinian club). I think he did it, because he may have felt that if he did not, that maybe we (as the Palestinian club) would not have taken him seriously if he had talked to her in private. He may have gotten a bit out of line, but I think it was necessary, because what Dina did in writting that article which made the leadership of the Palestinian club look unhelpful and uncooperative was inappropriate. I think that she did not place the meeting into it appropriate context. The article could have been more positive, because it was a positive meeting. We all left smiling and even accepted hugs and hand shakes. Our meeting last semester I thought was a success and I thought we left with an "understanding" of one another.
Although our poster may not be received with opened arms, I only wish that you guys would try to understand it, in its politicial sphere. We as Palestinian have a feeling and understanding of what is happening to our fellow Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and we feel that it is justified to equivalate the holocaust of the Jews to the systematic and sneaky genocide being enacted by the Israeli government, which is in fact lead by a war criminal (murderer) Areil Sharon (who carried out the attacks on Shabra and Shatila in which 2000 unarmed refugees were murdered due to his order as General in 1982).
We can't change how we each feel and neither can you. The same goes with your feelings, we can not change them. I hope that in the end we will be able to understand one another and we can only do so, if and only if we keep the lines of communication open between us. As I have told Steve of HIPAC time and time again, we need to place ourselves in the shoes of our counterpart. Open your eyes to our true interpretation rather than the misinterpretation being feed to you (of the so-called hatred of Judaism) and then will you be able to truly understand the meaning.

Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:05:00 PM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

silly me, i thought the attacks on Sabra and Shatila were carried out by Christian phalangists. i also thought that Ariel Sharon was defense minister - not a general - in 1982. thanx for enlightening me, Lisa.

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:56:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinan...Lisa said...

I appreciate your childish response Cooper. Its funny how you are unable to admit the fact that it was Ariel Sharon who purposefully sent in the Christian militia into Sabra and Shatila as to wage revenge for the assassination of the Lebanese president. I don't understand how you block out of your mind the demonstrations that occured in Israel against Sharon (for his role in the attacks) by his own people, seeking is resignation. But, rather you find it comforting to be ignorant and create a fantasy of Sharon.

Thursday, March 24, 2005 6:15:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

sharons problem was that he didnt use his head. he should have known better than allow fellow arabs to kill each other. there is no proof that he intentionally sent them into the camps to massacre the palestinians.

of course ure statements go down to the crux of the issue, which is of course ure own ignorance or intentional denial of events. u allege genocide, but u ignore the barak proposal for a palestinian state in the negotiations in 2000. arafat turned tht down in favor of a terror war. i doubt the situation for u folks was so unbearable if would rather have a war than a state.

now as for that interesting sign. u guys made the statment, its up to u guys to make it as clear as possible. we do not have to try to rationalize it, u do. its your statment. we know u fellows like to blow up our brothers and sisters in israel, therefore we should assume that your sign has benevolent intentions? if you want to play with fire you better know what you are doing or else ull burn yourself. apparently u have yet to master the flame, play at your own risk.

ta, or as they say in the holy land,

KABOOM!!

Monday, March 28, 2005 11:35:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinian... Lisa said...

Elder... I think if you would do your research on your so called innocent minded prime minister Sharon, you would see that he had intentionally sent in the Christian Lebanese malitia. Why can't you just admit the truth of the matter.

As for the supposite "generous offer" set forth by Barak; it was not very generous. I think that you need to go back and read the factual information as to what the proposal actually contains and why the proposal was dismissed by Arafat.

Look I am not in here to fight, I am here to reflect the opinion of the Palestinians because I think it is only fair that we have a voice in your circuit. I think that it is really a low blow for you to say that we enjoy blowing up our brothers and sisters. I really think that it is uncalled for. I am not coming into your chat and being disrespectful, but I guess unlike you I have descency.

As for the sign, yes it is our decision as to what we will do with it. We could have done nothing and left the sign as is, but instead we wanted to be the better person and we made a consession and put up a disclaimer. I, personally still continue talks with Steve of HIPAC. I think that we are doing as much as possible to difuse the situation. Therefore, I do not think it is necessary to continually make crude comments when they have no precise outlet. You may say we are playing with fire, whatever that means... maybe I should be taking it as a threat... are you threatening me/us? If so, that is really childish and ignorant on your part.

As I said in my intial statement, we all need to take the time to learn about one another and understand why we stand for particular beliefs, instead of attacking one another, like you have done as well as D.B Cooper. Lets be grown-ups, not children.

I would also like to point out that I am not ignorant nor are the members of the Palestinian club. We do not ignore atrocities unlike you are doing.

Next time you respond, make the attempt to speak to me as a human being rather than an ignorant child. You are leading yourself no where fast with all this childish talk. Although I see what your tactical approach is attempting to do- which is to annoy me and make me angry so as to stoop to your low level of insult. But I am sorry to disappoint you, I am not that kind of person, I don't like to lie down with the snakes. Take care.

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:13:00 AM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

Before i start, please let be get something straight, no one is threatening anyone.Let me rephrase my point, you put up a sign calling me and my people nazis. you guys are making a very strong statment which has insulted every Jew whom i have spoken to. if that is what you intend to do, then fine. You have no reason to take this as a threat, which it is certainly not. you should say what ever you like, but be aware that people have the right to be very angry and feel personally insulted, I do. If you find this conversation to be too intense, back out. Please don’t accuse me of threatening you, I am not.

Please note that I am angry and insulted at the manner with which you chose to express yourselves via that sign. You desire to be treated with respect, yet you do not give that to others. Instead you call me and my people Nazis, not exactly showing the diplomatic and respectful relationship that you desire in your above comments.

Imagine a sign that said "Africa for Africans, America for Americans", and then put a disclaimer underneath that claims that the sign was purely political. Would African-Americans not have the right to scream bloody murder? Your disclaimer does not solve anything in my eyes. but that of course is just my private opinion which i chose to share.

As far as your comments on being childish, i find calling a whole group of students Nazis is rather childish in of itself. It is I who has stooped to your level to tell you the truth, not the reverse. You called my relatives, and myself Nazis first, i took the bait. You are right I have to be the better person, and I will try, thanks.

You said "Next time you respond, make the attempt to speak to me as a human being rather than an ignorant child". Are you implying that children are not human beings? just a point that i found humorous.

If genocide is indeed being committed against you, as you say, than you would take anything you are given correct? Even if you were given one city, you take it in order to have a place of refuge, no? in clintons proposal in 2000 at camp david, he offered a palestinian state in gaza and 97% (somewhere between 95% and 98% of the west bank) of the west bank. Yassir Arafat rejected the proposal and walked out without putting forth a counter proposal. desperate people take anything correct? to me it seems as if your people are not as desperate as they make themselves out to be, if my understanding of the issue is correct. If you have a different version of events i would enjoy listening to it.

since u claimed that ariel sharon is a genocidal murder, why dont u give me a link to some documented evidence, hopefully third party material. The version of events that I have come to believe as truth is that Sharon made a bad decision to use the Phalangists to clean out the refugee camps of terrorists. I have yet to see anything that can prove that he knew and willingly aided in the massacre. Please note that I do not deny that there was a massacre in Sabra and Shatila, I have yet to see conclusive proof that Israelis willingly took part in that massacre. I would also like to make mention that during those tragic events in Lebanon, Israel was the only country to make any official inquiry into the matter. No other governing body that I know of made any inquiry into the massacre. I think this says something about Israeli democracy.

Peace

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:30:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

Wow i didnt know this conversation has become so heated otherwise i would have checked it more often. Firstly i am steve. Secondly i would hope that everyone takes the information that comes out of this war torn region with a grain of salt. The Lebanese situation was very sad and people didnt deserve to die. However, the role that sharon played with the christian arabs slaughtering palestinian refugees was not the same. and rather than blaming sharon and israel for these atrocities i think the 23 arab nations that did nothing to stop this are too blame.
how the other nations treat the palestinians is disgusting. They treat them like they used to treat Jews; before they were kicked out, keeping them in their own communities and not allowing citizenship.

The offer that Barak made was actually very generous and if it went through he probably would have been assasinated just like Rabin. However, i agree with you the Yasser Araffat would never have taken the offer no matter from who it came from. I personally believe that Araffat would not have taken any offer and that the only way peace could have been given a chance was if he died.
I have one question that i always forget to ask, i dont think anyone could really answer it cuz it was such a long time ago but during the period when the westbank and gaza where under jordanian and egyptian control (respectively) why did the palestinians not ask for a state then?

about the sign; The sign is hurtfull, disturbing and isn't really to the point. But ive made my opinion known about it before. When i speak to Lisa, whom i respect for her ability to hear me out even though somtimes i say things that probably are against her, i try to look beyond the sign like you asked me to do, but its really hard. When i look at the sign i remember i speech i heard someone say "why are you being so stupid they hate you and they show it so why do you always want to talk to them". Though i dont agree with that statement at all its hard to look beyond it.

We have to look the the future, Yasser Araffat is dead and so is Baruch Goldstein its time to see that we dont live in 2000 bce-1947-1967-or 2000, there are no green lines and there are two distinct people living there. Equating one side with Nazis is as childish wrong and detremental to survival as calling all palestinians suicide bombers.

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:31:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

oh and how did u find out about this blog

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:12:00 AM  

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Anonymous Palestinian... Lisa said...

Steve I found out about this blog by googling Dean Escott's name.
Elder Zion, I can refer you to a tape that I know of off the top of my head and if you are not willing to googgle the sabra and shatilia massacre I will look for written documentation. The film is entitled: Israel vs. The PLO (The Invasion of Lebanon). The film is a series of American news reports on the conflict that occured within Lebanon. It is very detailed and I think that it will come in handy for you to understand my statements involving the involvement of Sharon within the massacres.
Elder, I did not mean to imply that children are not humans. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I would prefer to stop the name calling, of who is being a child and who is not. As I have stated time and time again, even though you and other Jews do not agree with the sign I hope that you will do your research and really see the injustice of what is occuring to the Palestinians by the Israeli government.
Although you guys may think that the offer given to us by Barak was so generous, we do not feel it was. Would it be fair to say get rid of all the Jews from "Israel" so that the refugees can have their home back. I don't think so. The fact of the matter is that we don't have a home and you do. Your homeland was founded on land that was to be an independent state called Palestine. Its not fair that there are over 4 million Palestinians who are refugees due to the establishment of the state of Israel. But you don't want to admit it.
I do agree with Steve and blame many of the surrounding Arab countries for their lack of involvement. Maybe if those countries harboring refugees, such as Lebanon, would assimulate the refugees and give citizenship then maybe would they let go of the right of return. I do not only blame Israel for their mistreatment of Palestinians, believe me, fingers can be pointed in any which directions including on ourselves.
This long term conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis is due to the British and the French. They are the one's who talked to both sides behind one anothers back promising independence. We were both cheated to be honest.
I have one question that I am looking for a straight forward answer too. Isn't true that the Torah teaches that the "Promised Land" will be given to the Jews when the Messiah comes at judgment? I have received various answers.

Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:18:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinian.... Lisa said...

I would like to comment on the notion proposed by Steve in his last 'shpield' which refered to the death of Arafat as being a passage to peace: "I personally believe that Araffat would not have taken any offer and that the only way peace could have been given a chance was if he died."
I think that although Arafat did things that were not necessarily Pro the establishment of a secure Israel. We can not continue to point the finger at Arafat as being the sole indidivual in the way of peace between the Palestinians and Israelis. We must rememeber that for the last couple of years of Arafat's life he was held captive in a compound in Ramallah, in which he was unable to communicate with out side forces, unless authorized by Israeli personel.
Although, you, Steve (and others) may have seen him as a road block to peace. We as Palestinians saw him as our president. He is the one who put the identity of the Palestinians on the map within the international community. I do not think that you would appreciate me saying that the death of Sharon would initiate peace. Although I and others feel him to be a huge road block to peace. He is ambiguous in what he really wants for Palestine. He continually looks for lopeholes in which to point the finger consistantly at the Palestinians for the fault. He seems unwilling to take any blame.
Although this response I have made, may lead others to play the blame game, this is not what I am looking to do. I am just looking to purpose the alternative views of leadership. So if anyone is looking to insight a volley of words that is not what I had intented.
I am sure I will receive insightful responses from D.B Cooper and Elder Zion. But do me a favor save me your insight. Lets move along and talk about another obstacle in our course to peace.

Sunday, April 03, 2005 10:39:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

you dont seem to understand why i am bringing up the barak proposal. i brought it up bc i see the rejection of peace as another reason why the palestinian national movement does not want peaceful coexistance. If a people who is indeed suffering from "genocide" would rather continue to fight and suffer than have peace, i believe that either it simply wants to continue fighting, or it is not suffering as much as it claims it is.

"lets move along and talk about another obstacle in the course to peace". there are alot of them, ignoring important ones is not the way to do it.


I believe that the current goal of the palestinian national movement is the destruction of the state of israel. My rationale is that your club has equated the state of israel with the one of the most illegitimate regimes in the 20th century. There is no such thing as a peace process with such a state, therefore i have no reason to believe that it is the intention of the movement to do so.
The statements of your club as well as the actions of the leadership of the palestinian (intifadah, targeting of civilians etc.) national movement lead me to believe this. Of course even thinking such thoughts is politically incorrect, however i have no reason to believe otherwise.

The state of israel has pursued peae with its neighbors at every junction of history, only to be met with hate and guns.
I believe that the peace process is extremely important, irregardless of the hatred that is permeated by such actions. I hope peace comes one day with complete peaceful coexistence between the state of israel (as a Jewish state)and all its neighbors including a democratic palestinian state. May we all live to see that day.

I'm ending my role in this conversation because I find it hard to believe it will accomplish anything.

shalom

Monday, April 04, 2005 10:20:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinian... Lisa said...

Elder, I don't see it necessary for you to end your role in this conversation. How could someone who is an advocate of peace, not want to continue talks. Don't you see that talks are where the peace process can only begin.

I think that by continuing dialouge, dispite the fact of whether we agree with one another or not, I think that we are giving one another an opportunity to see how the other interprets things.

I think that there are extremes on both sides. I have met plenty Israelis who do not believe in Palestine to have ever exsisted, so on and so forth. I have also met Palestinians who do not believe in the state of Israel. But what we need to hear are the voices of those who are just sick and tired of fighting and killing. There are more of these people, but they are not heard because all the media wants to hear about is all the hatred between the two sides.

Although you feel that the Palestinian Authority does not want to coexist with Israel as its neighbor, I beg to differ. I can recommend a bunch of films, whether they are pro-Israel or Pro-Palestinian, and most if not all of the Palestinians in the films are speaking of peace and the end to the cycle of violence with Israel.

My biggest problem with your dialouge Elder is that you refuse to put any blame on the Israeli government. The Israelis are not as innnocent as they pretend to be. They have a bunch of wrong doing under their belts. There have been so many international human rights violations made by Israel as well as blantant ILLEGAL OCCUPATION which is stated in resolution 242 of the Geneva Convention, in which Israel is to (was to) remove/dismantle its tight hold on the West bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

But yet you talk to me as if you, are so blind to see the facts. Open your eyes and see what your people are doing. Its hard to admit when you are wrong or that you have been covering up, but you need to come to terms with it and stop living in denial. We all are to blame.

Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:34:00 PM  

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Anonymous Palestinian... Lisa said...

I want to add: SALAM

Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:36:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

Lisa can i borrow some of those reccomended movies im writing a paper on the IP conflict for my media class and have no arab movies....That would be cool thanks....
oh and lisa i read someof the comments that you wrote about the conflict in the envoy i dont know if the reporter took them out of context but they didn't sound so ummm nice.... ummm about the movies if u can get back to me that would be great...
Shalom and my peace rain on the world in a monsoon :)

Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:06:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

not my peace that would be not so kosher but may peace rain on the world :)

Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:07:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

the sign is why we started talking, and the sign is why im going to stop. either u dont understand the meaning of your sign or u intend to delegitimize the state of israel. either way there is no reason for me to continue in this conversation. i have many qualms about the palestinian movement - way more than i have even touched upon in this conversation - however i havent called u guys nazis or said some kind of insult that intended to simply delegitimize ureself.

this is a highly enticing conversation and i love to discuss the conflict with almost anyone, however i dont believe it will gain anything. i could write a book simply responding to ure allegations. the responses are endless however they wont solve anything or change ure or my opinions. peace will come through a political solution. american jews and american palestinians can only manipulate each other through conversation, they wont solve anything. i dont have the answer, but talking about issues that have no direct relevance only serve to delegitimize each other. im not going into the historical garbage because u have your truth and i have mine. we can only out convive each other or humiliate each other until one or the other just repeats useless propaganda. i support the state of israel because i am jewish and i want my family to live in peace and security. you support some kind of independent state of palestine because u either originate from there or have family and countrymen living there.

we both want peace, but under different circumstances and situations.

if u want to call me a nazi go right ahead, ill just tell u why i am not, and why u are the real one. there is nothing to gain in this conversation, especially if u want me to feel that i am a nazi.

shalom

Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:43:00 PM  

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Blogger Mesiach said...

in reasponse to the comment about the Neurei Karta or the relgious jews who are against israel. NK is what they call themselves. I dont know exactly so im actually just pulling this out of my ass and a little from wikipedia that they say that in one talmudic book it says "that when the Jews were exiled they made a pact that they will not rebell in any country that they live in and in return that nation will not treat them TO Harshly" (which means they can treat us a little harshly) so techinically the holocaust was pretty harsh so thats a against them...B. israel is not a religous government. C. the neurei karta are a small minority of about 5-8 thousand. D. zionism is a secular ideology E. these jews believe in a constant presence in "palestine" (they rarely ever say Israel) except as a minority F. they support suicide bombins G. one guy rabbi hirsch i think served in yasser arafats cabinet and in the fatah party

Monday, April 11, 2005 11:24:00 PM  

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