Tuesday, August 16, 2005

Did That Make You Feel Any Better?

After waking up at 10:30 today I went straight for my daily dose of Punks, naturally reading the first and only article I assumed it would simply another perfectly legitimate attack on the disengagment. For the most part I was right except for 6 words "Still happy, Moishe? Personally, I'm sickened." Yeah, that was refering to me, I go by Moishe, Moshe, Moishele, Crazy Moishele and Elder Punk of Zion. But lets cut to the chase, I'm not exactly "happy", I dont like to see the Dream of Greater Israel rolled back and thrown down the tubes, but that doesnt prevent me from seeing that the "occupation" of gaza is no longer tenable. Look, to Dina and all my other friends who don't agree with me, and thats a lot of you, I am not jumping for joy to see Israel do this. This isnt going into my book as one of the greatest moments in Israeli history, but that doesn't mean its not the right thing to do in this situation. Just curious, would you like to repeat those six words to half of the Israeli population? Dina, did you serve in the territories? have you ever killed someone? Would you be willing to bury your dead child (G-d forbid, may we never have to deal with such things) who was blown up by a roadside bomb in Gaza? Honestly would you? Because if can't answer yes to that last question you shouldn't be mocking me for saying that perhaps a different approach is necessary to a situation which has involved a lot of maimed Jews (not to mention palestinians, but heck undermenchen dont deserve human rights and those sort of trivialities). Would you like me to go on about the right to National Self-Determination? Is Democracy a four letter word to you? Do the rights of 8,500 people take precedent over the rights of roughly a million, none of which recieved government subsidies to live where they do? Come on Dina analyze this rationally please, or at the very least respect my position. We like to lecture the world about the Holocaust, however 6 million lost souls doesn't give us the right to lecture anyone unless we have a significantly higher standard of behavior than the people we are lecturing. While I am by no means defending the behavior of ANY country in the world, I do think we should maintain those higher standards that we set for everyone else, lest we get it thrown back in our faces. Whereas I utterly revile that little sign we have all come to hate, and believe it is Holocaust Denial on all levels, I do see that Holocaust lecturing as well as Israeli policy in the territories has brought us to these comparisons. Israel has acted no WORSE than any other nation in a similar situation, but has it acted sufficiently BETTER to warrant the lecturing us Jews and supporters of Israel give to the rest of the world? So on one level the gaza plan is about practising what you preach, but it is by no means the only understanding of the plan, but it is something you should think about before you blast the rest of us. Perhaps I am just overreacting from what was probably Orange overkill on tisha bav, I heard more about Gaza than the destruction of the house that Solomon built.

A fundemental flaw in your article was that its discussing the rants of a few palestinian intellectuals. Jewish intellectuals have said some pretty nutty things too, that doesn't mean they represent the Jewish concensus. As far as Hamas goes, no kidding, their goal is to destroy all of Israel, no ones gonna tell you otherwise. I'm rather surprised they didn't say they want all of historical palestine restored from the sea to the river. Don't expect the PA to come out saying that they will wipe out Hamas, especially if Hamas is a lot more popular in Gaza than Abbas's PA is. Well not unless Abbas wants to find himself 6 feet. I'm in the middle of reading Six Days of War by michael Oren, and one of the things I'm noticing is that Arab rhetoric means absolutely nothing. When Arab leaders speak rhetorically it means absolutely nothing as far as policy goes. One should recall the death threats made to Israel by Hamas after the assasinations of their leaders Yassin and Rantissi, the fact is that those threats were only hot air. Words don't count, only actions do, we have to wait and see.

I was once a Religious Zionist like most of you seem to be for better or worst, if the disengagement happened a few years ago I probably wouldve taken the Orange side. My world as far as Israel went was that it was a total no brainer, I assumed that Israel must hold on to as much territory as possible in order protect eretz yisrael. I didnt care about the arabs, I assumed that their situation was their own fault and everything was fine and dandy. I always assumed that every Israeli policy was to be defened and that the Arabs were always in the wrong. I knew who to support and who to hate. the truth is that that was extremely comforting. If your world is that simple it is much easier than to have to sort through everything to make the right decision, sometimes those decisions aren't as nice to your little picture of the world as you would like them to be. But that is the price I have to pay to be honest with myself. But please don't launch some personal attack on me because the perfect and clear world view that you thought you hold isnt as simple as you think it is, othe people can experience pain and suffering too, that includes: evicted settlers, palestinians, israeli arabs, israeli terror victims etc. Nothing is simple but to simplify it and hide behind some seemingly "perfect" understanding, is both naive and extremely dangerous. I stand by what I believe is the right thing to do, I believe it is the right thing for many more reasons and on many more levels than I can mention or even attempt to articulate here. Could I be wrong? Perhaps, I am certainly no prophet. I can only do what I think is right and pray to G-d that the results are what is optimal for the Jewish people as well as all Mankind. I have been told that even Dina believes in G-d, the question is does my friend have any faith?

Nachamu Nachamu Ami...

28 Shpeils

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

On Tishava B'Av we mourned the destruction of the Beit Hamigdash, correct, but not just the physical destruction of the building. We mourn why it had to be destroyed and that we are forced to live in galus, which is directly connected to the troubles in the state of Israel right now. I could not think of a better time to mourn being expelled from a land (by other Jews) which Hashem promised to us and davening that he will miraculoiusly save us.As for your idea that one is somehow not allowed to claim they want to keep this land unless they would like to sacrifice their own child, we are losing our brothers and sisters to this violence constantly. The people who are commiting these murders have no intention of stopping regardless of what he give them. Giving this back is simply rewarding them for their acts. Don't use this who I care about Palestinians as some sort of excuse. Care about them or not you cannot reward someone for murdering. They will never be satisfied with what they have and they will kill every last Jew in Israel to get what they want. If they want to live peacefully they would attempt to disarm the terrorists.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:55:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

a) correct on all counts except that alluding to comparing the "expellers" to Nazis on tisha b'av doesnt quite help as far as sinat chinam goes.

b)Im not sure where you hail from, but its a lot easier to face arab terrorism in Israel from ones living room in NYC than from an egged bus in TA. I have no right to tell Israeli kids to go and die in Gaza so that I can bask in the glory of "Greater Israel".

c) so your solution is to stay in the Gaza and maintain the status quo and let kids continue to die until the dude on the white donkey shows up? Do you have a solution to the problem of palestinian terrorism?

d) I have my own ideas about what should be done, but i do not read the israeli intelligence reports so I cannot formulate any serious solution. I have a choice between the status quo and an alternative, and the status quo is simply unacceptable so an alternative must be tried until something works.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:50:00 PM  

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Anonymous brown eyed girl said...

okay, so i skimmed your entry. however, as a zionist, i still agree for the most part, that we should grant them some land. let's just hope they don't take advantage of our genoriousity.

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:25:00 PM  

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Blogger BrownsvilleGirl said...

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their opinion is formed from black and white ideas or that their thinking is simple. That's one of the problems that existed during the elections--too many liberals painted it as if anyone who would think beyond "simple" would see the light. Calling those who see things differently "simple" doesn't help your cause in the least.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you as much as this post suggests. My mistake; I didn't mean for it to come across that way in the least.

Why am I anti-disengagment? Because I think it's despicable for us to kick our own brothers out of their own land for someone else. Have you ever heard the phrase, "chessed starts at home?" Know what that means? That while it's nice to go help the sick and elderly and homeless, it's more important to make sure that your mother doesn't need you to do anything. There are guidelines to giving tzedaka, too. The guidelines are the order in which you give: 1. Immediate family, 2. Relatives, 3. Jewish neighbors, 4. Jews in other countries, 5. Non-Jews. Do you know why this is the order? Because your first concern should be those closest to you.

Israel might be a Jewish state, but it's missing the crucial "Jewish" bit right now. I don't even care about the legalities right now, I'm just concerned with the lack of religious morality. You think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard? What is that? Is it a higher standard of morality to expel a brother for a stranger? No, it's sickening.

You wouldn't see this elsewhere--too many Jews are too apologetic. It's a damn ugly tragic flaw.

Have a good night.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:52:00 AM  

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Blogger Elster said...

Note: It appears as though a settler opened fire and killed three PAlestinias today. While I find it hard to dredge up sympathy for the deceased, I find it equally horrifying that a jewish person, not bred on the same hate that the "other side" supposedly has been, can perpetrate this sort of action.

Aren't we supposed to be better than that? Is the Gaza strip just poison to anyone who touches it? Does it creep into the minds of Jew and non-Jew alike, like tendrils of insanity, and cause people to bring further destruction? I don't know.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:29:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

u find it hard to "dredge up" sympathy for 3 innoncent human beings gunned down? Is it because they are guilty of trying to support their families and live as normally as they could?!? I dont know if my support for the disengagment has necessarily increased over the past few days, but my dismay at the religious zionist community has certainly increased.

is elster two seperate people bc tht seconnd paragraph mustve been written by someone else. My friend u have touched on one of the essential points of the israeli peace movement, that the "occupation" has been equally harmful to the so-called occupied and the "so-called" occupier.

i swear ive moved farther left everyday this week. G-d help us all.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:16:00 PM  

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Blogger Elster said...

My dearest Elder Punk:

My lack of sympathy for the deceased comes from my innermost feelings; which finds it hard to believe that there are many "innocents" within the Palestinian community. Call me crazy but I thinbk they are all crazy. They live with a hatred that youm and I cannot even begin to imagine. So while it may not be their fault, I assert that each and every one of them woldn't piss on you or me if we were on fire.

THAT being said, We ARE supposed to be better than that. We aren't supposed to take out our guns and start firing at people randomly. That's why the IDF sustained such heavy casualty in Jenin and other towns 2 years ago. No, we aren't SUPPOSED to be beter, history (even recent history) has shown that we ARE better. So it kills me when someone from my own people exhibits the same type of maniacal behavior that indeed makes us so different from out enemy. And make no mistake, our peace "partner" remains our enemy until such time as they sweep us into the sea (shall it split for us).

As for my feelings for the religious zionist movement: I don't feel as though I am armed with nearly enough information to make a judgement but I will say this: In order to live in Gaza in the first place you needed a screw loose - so they were starting behind the 8-ball, you know?

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:19:00 PM  

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Anonymous brown eyed girl said...

okay, i haven't read the other comments, just so you know. but i heard a lot of people claiming we're "kicking out our brothers and sisters." my personal stance on this ( and before you start jumping on me, you may not agree, but respect my opinion as both an american citizen, and an israeli citizen, and as someone someone who has lived in israel in the past) is first of all, as residents of the good 'ol untied states, some of who are standing under their orange proclaiming we're kicking out brothers and sisters, etc, i was surprised to find out, a lot of these people have either never been to israel, or had spent two weeks, at the most, a month there on a program.

if you're not living in israel, personally, i believe you have no say. until you make aliyah, politics, are not your department. while you may read the newspaper, and watch tv, you really don't have a feel of what's going on. you can't possibly imagine. you can't imagine how it feels to be told to give up your home, and you also can't imagine how it feels to know your son, daughter, mother, father, sister or brother, might die the next time they are called up. not even anymore protecting their own country from terrorists, but now also from their fellow countrymen.

i also can't understand why (okay, i can, but that's besides the point), if there are like 25 arab countries, why someone else can't take them in, and leave us alone.

but, if they as so much blow up something. i myself, will fly to israel, with a .22 (every jew a .22), and personally drive every single one of them out of gaza.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:57:00 PM  

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Blogger Elster said...

BEG:

I am sort of in agreement with you on this. my take is tha everyone has a right to an OPINION on this matter (whether you have been to Israel or not) BUT no one in America has the right to be FANATICAL about their position from the comforts of NY, Miami or, heaven forbid, Cleveland.

Why won't the other Arab countries take them in? that's easy. They hate the Palestinians as much as we do. But thwey use them as a rallying cry against the Jews, the only people they hate worse.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:00:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

my country aka the USA gives 3 millions dollars to the state of israel every year, it grants them loans - all from my tax money! that is why i have a right to tell YOU wht to do with it. I have no right to tell someone to go and put their life on the line, but i do have a right to express my opinion as far as what should be done with my money.

the arab countries wont take them in because: a) the palestinian problem can divert attention from their own domestic troubles.
b) they already live somewhere, i hate to break it to you but since 1967 a concrete palestinian national identity has emerged and they arent gonna just give up and move to someone elses sand dune.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:41:00 PM  

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Anonymous brown eyed girl said...

Now that I have read all the comments (including my own). Disclaimer: I'm trying my very best not to attack anyone's ideas or opionions, but simply to make them see my side what what they say.

To Anonymous: We morn on Tish B'Av the destruction of the Beit Hamigdash and "We mourn why it had to be destroyed and that we are forced to live in galus, which is directly connected to the troubles in the state of Israel right now." I'm wondering if you stopped to think that maybe God has decided that not only should would give back this land, but coincidently, give it back around Tish B'Av. Perhaps God wants to send a meassge, a message that many it appears are not receiving. Maybe, for some crazy reason, God feels we have to give this back, that we are not ready to have it all.

"They will never be satisfied with what they have and they will kill every last Jew in Israel to get what they want. If they want to live peacefully they would attempt to disarm the terrorists." I agree with this statement to an extent. I do believe that there are good muslims out there, just as there are bad jews. In fact, I know muslims, who live in the west bank, some of the nicest people I know. Unfortunatly, with the muslim arabs who hates us, they want more then anything to push us into the Sea, and see us all gone from this world, especially Israel. But as the bigger people, we have to try and live side by side with them.

To Dina: I think in my post above I addressed what you said. However, the state of Israel, before we were given the land in 1948, had been started by left wing russians, who were not relgious. they started Kibbutzim, and most of them were pretty left wing, they were pioneers. ALso, too many religious, observant jews, who live in the country of Israel, the one they call "their birthrite," and their "homeland" refuse to serve in the army, and defend "their country." They need to start stepping up and get with the program. Although, as of right now, I'm probably consistered an army deserter (or whatever they call Israeli citizens who stay in forgein countries and don't serve), I promised my mom I would finish college before doing my army time. I think it's not only a good expereince, but it's something I owe to "my homeland," and "my brothers and sisters."

To Elster:
In your first statement you used the words "dredge up," I have to agree with Moisele on this. Just because they are muslim and arab does not make them any less of a human being. I think that's the problem. Jews around the world do not think of them as people. As for the settler, I think he was the inhumane animal, and I think him no less then hamas.

As far as the other Arab countries taking them in, I stated that I knew why, and I do. In fact, when the Palistinians were in Jordan and also in I believe Lebonon (but I could be wrong about the second), mass genicide was committed upon their peoples. Not to mention, Eygpt certainly doesn't want them, and they haven't exactly kept that quiet, nor do any other countries. Why? Because the majority of them are terrorist, and all the arab countries know that. They know they are extremeists, and very poor. While they will donate money to their cause, they don't want to be directly involved. My point was more that, the palinstinians should be dumped there, and perhaps the extremeists would be killed off, so no one has to worry.

Of course the disengagement came up today in a discussion between one of my best friends and I on the way back from Brooklyn today (while stuck in 3 hours of traffic). Just so you have a background on him, he spent two years in Yeshiva in Israel, graduated from Yeshiva (college) in Sokie, Ill, and now teaches english in the Yeshiva's High school. As one of the smartest people I know, and very much the Zionist, You can imagine how surprised I was to find out, he actually agreed with my opinion on the whole thing. Not to mention, he pointed out to me something very amusing, and very true. While in the past, for example, America trying to hunt down bin Laden, it has been hard to find the terrorists, being that they are hiding out in caves and such. The Gaza strip will be like terrorist head quarters. Any country looking for some crazy extremeists? Or perhaps some terrorists? Just go to Gaza, they're mass producing them. While the terrorists used to be all over, now they have a general meeting area. While my best friend said this in a much more intelluctional sounding (yet funny) way, I have to agree with him. All we have to do now is threaten bulldoze gaza in search of terrorists. I also think they might end up losing all political and international symphy this way, and that in the end, we might actually get it back. Just be patient.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:55:00 PM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see why G-d would allow it to be taken away from Israel around this time, I do not think that what the state of israel is doing is right. That of course goes into a much larger issue of free choice. The whole experience I'm sure reminds us all of the exile we are forced to endure.
I never said all Muslims were bad. I did not even say all Palestinians were. Most are unfortunate victims to their own leadership. I was refering to the groups of Palestinians who want to see the entire population of the state of Israel killed, the ones who say similar and far worse comments frequently.The ones who are claiming Israel is leaving Gaza because they forced them out with violence. I wonder what they'll think of to try to get Israel to surrender more land. I also hold the Palestinian leadership responsible for not trying to end the violence.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:32:00 PM  

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Blogger Elster said...

Brown eyed:

Imagine that, at the tender age of say 2, you were taken, along with many other little 2 years olds, and told that, from now on, you are to hate peanuts. Peanuts are the worst possible thng in the world. They kill people, cause cancer, cause heart attacks. If you see a peanut, you are told, you are to step on it, to crush it intoas many little pieces as is humanly possibnle. Smash them to the point where they wouldnt even be able to make a decent PB&J anymore.

At the age of 5, you are given a hammer and you watch videos of the proper ways to destroy peanuts. There is a little museum in your town which pays homage to the time one of your tribe packed himself up with explosives and blew himself, along with that peanut factory in charleston, to smithereens.

By 14 you know that your life's calling is to do the same. You race your brothers and sisters for the right to be the first person on your block to strap yourself full of explosives and take out that factory in brooklyn. In the meantime, you get your jollies hunting down unsuspecting cand of Planters and smashing them with that hammer of yours. You know, the one they gave you when you were five.

It's not your fault you are this way. it's the fault of the society that told you that your life is less valuable than the can of peanuts. Give yourself to the cause, and in the next life you can eat all the peanuts you want. But in THIS life, society tells you, kill them all.

So I don't BLAME you for being less human than I but it doesnt change the fact that you are.

Analogy over. I see arabs as humans. As a general rule. BUT not the ones who would dance in the streets and claim "victory" in gaza. Not the ones who dance in the streets of New Jersey as the Towers came falling down like a house of cards. Not the ones indoctronated with hate. When THEY stop hating, then I will see them on equal footing. until then (and believe me, as a general rule I am NOT a hardliner) I cannot agree with you on this one.

Sorry though.

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:06:00 PM  

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Anonymous brown eyed girl said...

The ones you refer to are not humans. However, I believe that when someone kills another out of sport and not self defence (and "sport" covers a large array of things), they lose the ability, no matter what race, religion, sex, etc, they might be, to be considered a human being.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:08:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Errr, did Elder Punk actually say U.S. gov money to Israel was "3 millions dollars" (sic) annually? Try more than 3 billion annually in foreign aid. It is the number one recipient of US foreign aid and the above figure does not include gov money through other programs.

With Israel the greatest foreign recipient of US tax-payer largess, i guess Americans, Jewish or not, have a rather reasonable right or even duty to comment on policies there.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:26:00 AM  

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Blogger Elster said...

Don't get me wrong. The guy who shot the Palestinians is no better than the people I described above. His own hatred and fear made him less of a human as well. I don't play favorites.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:28:00 AM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

anonymous - (im assuming ure the same person)

3 billion is correct my mistake. Interestingly enough Israel began recieving those 3 billion after evicting the residents of the sinai settlements, in a situation similar to todays.

There certainly has been a failure in palestinian leadership over the years. in truth i was hoping that the IDF would leave Gaza while at the same time wack the terrorist infastructure within it, if even only symbolically.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:29:00 AM  

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

ah no theres 2 anonymous writers

Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:32:00 PM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

believe it or not, i'm actually in concurrence with moishe (gasp!) vis-à-vis u.s. foreign aid entitling american taxpayers to an opinion regarding israeli policies – though i pray incessantly that our nebbish “leaders” will muster up the moxie to reject external assistance and make israel economically independent once and for all. furthemore, as american jews, we provide economic support through the purchase of israel bonds, as well as political support through organizations like aipac. surely this merits some consideration of our suggestions.

however, all this pales in comparison to the REAL reason why we have the right to share our two cents concerning israel: WE ARE JEWS!!! ipso facto, it is our prerogative to comment on the affairs of the “jewish state” (or rather, “that country in the middle east that happens to have a jewish majority”). Eretz Yisrael is G-d’s gift to the Jews, not “israelis” (an ethnicity as fictional as the “palestinians”). although I don’t believe this warrants us a say in trivial internal affairs – such as the agricultural budget or tel aviv’s burgeoning pothole epidemic – i do believe that our collective voice pertaining to issues that concern the Jewish nation as a whole must be heeded. in fact, natan sharansky – an MK and former diaspora jew who spent eight years in a soviet gulag – proposes a “diaspora knesset” for davka this function. after all, decisions made by the israeli government have this disconcerting tendency to affect world jewry (e.g. the attack on a jewish day school in buenos aires or the firebombing of synagogues in marseilles all in the name of “anti-zionism”). if the pompous israeli political establishment doesn’t like it, they can kiss my falafel-flavored ass (don’t ask me how i know)!

another little factoid to reflect on: israel wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for diaspora Jews like theordore herzl. put THAT in your bottle and drink it, biotch!

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:29:00 PM  

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Blogger Elster said...

"after all, decisions made by the israeli government have this disconcerting tendency to affect world jewry (e.g. the attack on a jewish day school in buenos aires or the firebombing of synagogues in marseilles all in the name of “anti-zionism”)."

Ah, This is my favorite fallacy; that somehow these attacks in Europe and SA are somehow connected to those damn Zionists. Tell me, DB, how did people manage to perpetrate Jewish hate crimes before the state? Oh, right, they did it in the name of good old Anti-Semetism. Because cloud it in whatever terms you want, attacks on Jews have nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Jews. Anti-Zionism is just the latest in a never ending line of excuses that anti-semites use.

Of all people, YOU guys should understand that. Wasn't the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (originally having nothing to do with Jews and just chnaged to Zion, BTW) a great excuse in the 1800's? And Mein Kampf in the early 1900's? There will ALWAYS be a reason to hate jews. Don't blame it on the State of Israel...

Thursday, August 18, 2005 5:21:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

In defense of DB -

Both attacks mentioned by DB were carried out not by the native populations where the crimes took place but rather by outsiders seeking to hurt jews world wide. I am fairly certain tht Iranian intelligence was implicated in the attack on the jewish community center in Buenos Aires. And the Attack in Marseilles was blamed on the discontent muslim population seeking to link the issues regarding their brothers in the middle east to their own social problems in europe.

both of these attacks can be directly linked to the existence of the state of israel. Whereas Jewish existence together with a muslim population was never perfect, the current level of animosity and hatred can only be linked to the zionist movement.

Against DB - For the time being American aid is CRUCIAL to Israels well being. Almost all anti-israel Security Council resolutions have been blocked by the US. Any type of large scale economic boycott or sanctions against Israel involving the US would be catastrophic. US monetary aid is vital to many of israel's needs including immigrant absorbtion as well settlement building. yeah even that benefits from those 3 Billion. Israel should probably try to bolster relations with other Great Powers in the world today, however completely breaking ties with the US would be catastrophic.

Heres a factoid for u DB, Theodore Hertzl would have moved to Zion had his dream been fulfilled during his lifetime. Name me great zionist leaders who chose to live in the diaspora while they had the ability to live in Israel. I cant think of any.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:58:00 PM  

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Anonymous Brown Eyed Girl said...

Randy, I'm going to have to agree with Elster on this one. Anti-Semeites and the French love excuses to hate jews. Zionism just happens to be there right now. When we didn't have Israel, it was because we killed good Christian children and used their blood to make matzah. Or, our noses are too big, our hair too dark, or too curly. Now they use Israel as their excuse. Those who hate jews will never be happy until they are rid of all of us, and then they'd move on to a different group.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:39:00 PM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

i wasn't defending anti-zionism at all! if truth be told, i agree with both of you!!

rather, i was simply shedding light on the fact that israelis aren't the only victims of "anti-israel" terror. if diaspora jews are being attacked abroad in the name of israel, then we too are "israelis."

in addition, it should be noted that israeli-arabs are never targeted by terrorists. the mamzerim only target israel’s jewish citizens. this gives further credence to our SHARED belief that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are one and the same.

Friday, August 19, 2005 1:08:00 AM  

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Blogger Elster said...

THAT I can agree with. Just a point of note. Israel's economy is in the crapper right now with an unbelieveable amount of people falling below the poverty line. That 3 billion sure sounds good right about now...

Friday, August 19, 2005 9:58:00 AM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

what y'all fail to mention is that of the $2.8 billion in economic aid we receive from america, $2 billion goes back to u.s. defense contractors. that doesn't sound like "aid" to me. notwithstanding, altogether this constitutes less than 3% of israel's GDP – which isn’t very significant when you factor in the painful sacrifices we make at the behest of foreign leaders. in addition, the americans have impeded israel’s own defense contractors from developing innovative projects such as the Lavi fighter jet – feeling it would threaten the primacy of the F-16 – and blocked our sale of radar equipment to China totaling $4 billion.

nevertheless, why should there be strings attached to this assistance anyway? wasn’t this aid GUARANTEED to us pursuant to the agreement we made with president carter when we relinquished control of the sinai peninsula – an area twice the size of our entire country – to the egyptians at camp david?? again, if our "leaders" had the testicular fortitude necessary to lead our country, they would remind the americans of the invaluable intelligence we shared with them during the cold war – when arab-israeli conflicts were proxy wars for the global hegemonic powers. they would also be reminded of our vital role in the global war on terror, and how it is in america’s interest to have a stable democratic power in the middle east in order to keep our belligerent arab neighbors from attacking each other.

the halutzim (pioneers) didn’t fight for the establishment of a Jewish state only to surrender our sovereignty and emerge as america’s 51st state.

Friday, August 19, 2005 12:11:00 PM  

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Blogger Elster said...

Well DB, you certaily are better educated on this topi han I am. (Though your last sentiment, while very eloquent, might be a little much no?)

Friday, August 19, 2005 12:27:00 PM  

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Blogger elder punk of zion said...

i never quite understood this logic, but how exactly does having this so called stable democratic country called israel in the region keep it stable? Israel has been the cause or at least a prime factor in 5 major wars to date? explain tht one rabbi. The arab states would fight each other with or without israel.

Friday, August 19, 2005 3:29:00 PM  

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Blogger D.B. Cooper said...

this is the answer to your question, moishele

Friday, August 19, 2005 5:35:00 PM  

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